The Party Line with Virginia Trioli - ABC Radio Melbourne

Interview on ABC Radio Melbourne - 25 August 2022

Virginia Trioli:

We've got a couple of members in the chamber for you today, for the party line, and they are indeed sitting members. Delighted to say that Senator David Van and Liberal Senator for Victoria is back with you for the party line. Senator, good to have you back. Good morning.

David Van:

Good morning, Virginia. Lovely to be back.

VT:

And Peta Murphy, Federal Labor MP for Dunkley, is with you as well. Peta Murphy, good morning.

Peta Murphy:

Good morning, Virginia. Very excited. My first time on party line.

VT:

Oh, very happy to have you here. And you, of course, are most welcome too. We're going to get to all the big political issues and I'm sure you might like to have your say. So give us a call.

Well, where do we start? Why don't we start with we've got the Solicitor-General's ruling on Scott Morrison's multi ministries? And as most people expected and was foreshadowed, nothing illegal was found there. What's the risk? Peta Murphy why is the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, continuing to pursue this when there's no illegality, tying up his attention and resources in an inquiry and also looking to pursue something and appearing pretty unseemly when there's no illegality to be found.

Isn't there a risk here?

PM:

I don't think there is, because with all due respect, Virginia, I don't agree with some of the things that you said in the set up.

VT:

You're not you're not about to say you disagree with the premise of the question, are you? I mean, it's actually banned on this show.

PM:

I didn't say the word premise. Some of the things you said in the setup. Well, firstly, I don't agree that having an inquiry ties up resources that can be used elsewhere. A capable government can do a number of things at one time, and this is a government that is doing so. Secondly, illegality isn't actually the test. As you know, the solicitor general's advice also pointed out that by getting himself appointed to ministries and keeping it secret that Scott Morrison's actions were inconsistent with convention.

Certainly, practices of responsible government, which are critical to constitutional democracy. And if there's one thing we know from the election result, it's that people in Australia are sick and tired of governments that aren't transparent, that aren't accountable. And we also know both here, but we only have to look around the world how not just precious but fragile democracy and the processes of democracy are.

So, this is a really important step in trying to restore some trust and also protect the fundamental laws of our democratic system.

VT:

Senator Van, what do you reckon is a hiding to something or hiding to nothing in pursuing this?

DV:

Well, I think it's just a complete waste of time. I mean, the solicitor general gave his advice and the Prime Minister said that he would respond to that advice. He responded to it at a press conference. What else is there other than for him to say that he's never going to do it? It'd be good to have him on record saying that.

PM:

Well he has, he's also said, looking at bringing in whatever needs to be brought in to stop it happening again. But you need to know exactly what happened in order to stop it happening again. And with all due respect to you, David, accountability isn't sort of saying, oh, whoops, he was caught. He's, you know, okay, don't do it again, move on.

It's actually about getting to the bottom of how things happened and making sure that people were involved. We know what they did.

DV

The Prime Minister has said that he you know, he's put out statements on that. I mean, I'm not sure what's left to do other than for the government to get on with governing rather than trying to still act as an opposition.

VT:

If Senator Van, if we reversed the personnel and if we made it someone, a Labor prime minister who had done this, do you think in all honesty, do you think you'd actually want to have some sort of limited inquiry to at least nail aspects of it that haven't been explained yet down?

DV:

Well, given that the Solicitor General gave his answer in one word, yes, it wasn't illegal and then provide another 5000 words of opinion. I think that's a pretty you know, there's a fair amount in that to be able to move on with. I'm not sure that we would want to waste our time. We were busy governing with this government should do the same.

VT:

Let's hear from the listener. You've heard or you've read about the solicitor general's report. His analysis of what Scott Morrison done. Should Anthony Albanese leave it at that? Is there merit, is there value in having an inquiry into how it happened and what people knew at the time? Answering the eternal question, who knew what, when or not.

Give us a call. You can chat to Senator David Van and also to the federal Labor MP for Dunkley, Peter Murphy, about this. I'd love to get a sense of this.

Now, intriguingly, we're just about to look, though, at another kind of inquiry because Catherine Holmes, AC has just been appointed as Royal Commissioner. We're seeing Bill Shorten and Amanda Rishworth speak about that right now in Sydney announcing that Royal Commission into the Robodebt scheme.

And that really is a sorry piece of history from your part of government there. David Van, tell us your reflections on that when you think back on the Robodebt scheme and what it did to some people in their lives, what do you feel about all that?

DV:

Well, it pre-dated my time in Parliament, so I've had little or no involvement with it other than to say that, you know, obviously, anything that affects people's lives I have real sympathy for. But, you know, whether this needs a Royal Commission and whether you listeners know or not. But, you know, I advise clients through full Royal Commissions, they are incredibly time consuming and resource consuming and money consuming pieces of investigation.

Given that there had been a court cases into this, I'm not sure there is another one. But if the government wants to waste taxpayers money, they're now in government.

VT:

You see this royal commission into Robodebt as a waste of money.

DV:

I'm not sure what else it's going to give rise to. It will give people a chance to voice their frustrations. And yet we know the media love a good Royal Commission. There'll be headlines out of this that the media will be able to promulgate for years, if not months, if not years. So, you know, as a veteran of Royal Commissions, I don't see that this is one that would necessarily qualify.

VT:

Peta Murphy?

PM:

I couldn't disagree more. I mean, like David, the setup of this scheme, which was set up by previous Liberal governments, predates my time in Parliament. But unlike David, my involvement as a member of Parliament is with people coming to me telling me about the impact that are Robodebt being enforced on them head on their lives, the mental health issues, not being able to afford rent because they were paying back a Robodebt.

A young family who had the same debt applied on them three times for the woman who had had a baby, which meant that she couldn't afford to go back to university and study. Like this had a real impact on people's lives. And there was a court case which was settled, but it doesn't go into how this managed to be set up, how it was operated and what the actual impacts were on people.

And we know that royal commissions have often a dual purpose if they're done properly. One is to find out if people are responsible, what liability, criminal or civil there are. And the other is that so that people who have been impacted by what's happened to them have an opportunity for to tell their stories and to have their experiences heard and acknowledged.

And they're both vital things to occur in this case.

VT:

Senator David Van Liberal Senator for Victoria and Peta Murphy, Federal Labor MP for Dunkley with you as well. Amanda in Pakenham has texted in this 'give me a break. How many times has a state investigation said there's nothing to see here re Dan Andrews yet the libs bang on about it. But when a Liberal is utterly reprehensible and admits to it, we should move on. Really?' Question mark. Question mark asks Amanda, is that a little bit of what's going on here? David Van, you want to have the opportunity to criticise when you're in opposition, but of course not when you're in government, you won't cop it?

DV:

Well, it has lots to the Dan Andrews has tried to you know dodge his way out of so.

VT:

But that's that makes that that makes the point doesn't it. We actually shouldn't listen to the people who are in power. We're in power saying move on. It's not a big deal when it turns out there may have been something to reveal?

DV:

What we're trying to see is this government move on with governing. I mean, we've set for two weeks so far since the election, which was nearly three months ago. We've only got another six weeks to go. And this government's got no legislative agenda to move on with. All they're looking to do is to prosecute the past. I mean, look, let's, you know, run the country this is what the what they were elected to do.

VT:

I can hear you want to have a response there in the background, Peta, but I'm going to go to some calls just for one moment and then I'll come back to you. But have a listen first to Anthony Albanese speaking just now about establishing the Robodebt Royal Commission.

Anthony Albanese:

The royal commission will examine the establishment of the scheme, who was responsible for it and why it was necessary, how concerns were handled, how the scheme affected individuals and the financial costs to government and measures to prevent this ever happening again.

VT:

And as I mentioned, the Royal Commission, it's just been announced, will be led by the former Queensland Supreme Court justice Katherine Holmes. Hans in Castlemaine - What would you like to say?

CALLER:

Ah, just two things about Robodebt. Number one, it was an unprecedented attack on vulnerable all Australians by their own government. I mean, as it unfolded, we could all see that that it was never been done before. And the second thing is that it was breaking the law. The Government of Australia, the elected government of Australia broke the law. And if you don't have a Royal Commission, you won't find out how that was done and make sure that it can never happen again.

VT:

Well, let's hear from Bassan from Coburg on this one. Bassan, go ahead.

CALLER:

Yeah. Hi, Senator Van. You are a Liberal member and representing the Liberal Party, but you don't seem to like, have responsibility for your party. Remember that it was the Liberal Party that brought two inquiries on halal's connections to terrorism, not one, one cost 80 million.  Then the Unions Royal Commission. The things that have you forgotten a lot? That's a little insight.

VT:

Okay. So I think the point Mason is making there, Senator Van, is that you brought in your own commissions of inquiry as well into things that you didn't like. The previous government had done.

DV:

Well, you know, some of those were state ones, not federal ones. So, you know, that's not the point. The point of this is what's going to be learned other than things that are already known. And that's my total point. As I said, having worked on four Royal Commissions and knowing the cost of them, you know, this is an awfully big cost.

Where is the Labor government going to start cutting money out of other services to pay for it?

VT:

Peta, I know you wanted to respond before. Go ahead.

PM:

I did laugh when David said we don't have a legislative agenda. I mean, in the first two weeks of Parliament, we introduced in the House of Representatives something like 20 bills to introduce ten days, domestic violence leave and the climate change bill with setting emissions targets and holding departments and ministers responsible to report to the parliament.

Aged care reforms from the Royal Commission past the entire Parliament. And we've had a jobs and skills summit happening next week. The diplomacy in our region and around the world has been amazing since we've been elected. Minimum wage case supporting aged care wage is going up and the campaign on the voice for the statement of the heart. So, I think it's a little bit rough to say we're not governing and.

DV:

Well, you know, a few junkets around the region aren't governing.

PM:

Oh, crikey, I think that Hans is exactly right with what he said. And David asked, what will be found out from this royal commission into Robodebt? You heard the prime minister at least a number of things that will be found out. And one of the things that happened in the last term of government is that the ministers in the last term of government denied that they'd done any wrong, anything wrong wouldn't provide information about how it was set up, how it was run and the case that was brought before the courts.

The government ended up having to settle out of court and one would think partly so that all this information wasn't made public. So that is actually what we will find out through this Royal Commission.

VT:

Peter Murphy and Senator David Van are with you today for the Party Line. This is coming from Nicole in Ballarat. Hi. But move on, Mr. Albanese. You need to stop being a leader, not a brawler. He's a cliché, says Nicole in Ballarat. Dean in Northern Japan. Always nice when Northern Japan comes calling to Melbourne. Good morning, Dean. What would you like to say?

CALLER:

Hi. Hey, don't. Finally Peta stood up in and see what we wanted to do. David got on your program and said get on with government. And this is rich coming from a man who's part of a of a group who had the least sitting days even before COVID and the scarcest policy platform and list of achievements of any government in living memory.

I mean, how does he get away with saying get away without blushing?

VT:

You're being called out there. Your side of politics. David Van, for not sitting long enough when you were in government, when you're trying to say that this mob isn't doing enough, I'm just going to be traffic cop in the middle of all this. Go ahead, David.

DV:

Yeah, well, I'll call that one out. We said in 2019, 2020 and 2021, typically, particularly 2020 and 2021, more days despite COVID than this government will sit this year. So, you know.

VT:

This this government hasn't been elected for a full year, though.

DV:

They've been elected. They've been elected three months. We've set two weeks.

VT:

I don't think history will dispute the fact that you're sitting days were quite astonishingly short. I think I think that's established. In fact, David Van.

PM:

Ah, look, we were elected in May. There was a time between the election and the first sitting of parliament where those 20 pieces of legislation had to be drawn up, issues had to be addressed. And one of the things that Anthony Albanese has said as the Prime Minister is that we're not going to be a Government that makes announcements or introduces rushed legislation for the sake of it.

We're going to do things in a proper process in a methodical way. And David might say it, but I don't think that anyone who's coming at this from objective viewpoint would say that this government has wasted a few minutes since we were elected, particularly as at least I went through Virginia, which I won't go through, that took place.

It shows, you know, shows the issues that we've addressed. And David's right. They were covered in 2020 and 21. But I think it's fair to say the Morrison government wasn't a government that liked to sit in Parliament very much, even despite COVID.

VT:

Let me change the subject and get to another matter. I'd love to hear your view on this, Senator, because the Communications Minister, Michelle Rowland, staged a rather surprising sort of intervention into the battle for AFL broadcast rights. And as a Victorian Senator, I know you'd pay very close attention to this, wanting to maintain the availability of as many matches as possible on free to air television under any new deal that might be inked.

What do you make of this? Is this properly the responsibility in your view, of a communications minister?

DV:

Well, the first thing I'll say is go Pies.

VT:

See me. And we were going so well.

PM:

We've got 2 Carlton people on here.

DV:

Well I think it's strange. It seems a bit strange at this point that the minister would be weighing in on this.

VT:

I know that another concerned your government as well. Any government is always worried about too much of those sort of matches being tied up behind a paywall or behind a streaming service. So I appreciate it's a difficult line to walk, isn't it?

DV:

It's a terrible, difficult line to walk. But freedom there is a you know, that has to play some part in it. You know, if they want to have a look at it, you know, I think go right ahead and let's see some see what they want to propose. But we haven't seen anything but a media statement yet.

So despite Peta's point before about announcements over substance, let's see the substance.

VT:

Well, what would the substance be? I mean, what exactly is your government suggesting it might be willing to do or might even be able to do in intervening what is a close and private and commercial arrangement.

PM:

We took a commitment to the election about reviewing the anti-siphoning rules, which are the laws that regulate this this market. And so that's part of what we'll do. And this is one of the areas as well where statements from ministers have a significant impact and that taken into account by the parties as-

DV:

Oh now they do, do they Peta?

PM:

This is an area which is always been one of those areas, whoever's in government. So, I agree with David that this is a difficult area. But I we do interfere in markets and regulate markets all the time, particularly when market value would impact on society.

VT:

It's been suggested this is an example of market failure.

PM:

Well, can you imagine as Victorians, the AFL only being accessible if you can pay to watch it?

VT:

And I don't think anyone is Peta Murphy. I don't think anyone is sensibly suggesting that that's going to be an outcome of these negotiations. No AFL games go behind a streaming service.

PM:

No, no, I'm not saying it is, but I'm saying that's, you know, that's a one particular outcome. But I'm also like going to the point of why I say that this is a particular - if there's a market value, that means that people can access sport and particularly nationally important sport. I think that does have an impact on society because I do think it's a big part of our culture of who we are.

And I do think there's an inequality if some people can watch that.

VT:

But that wasn't the question, Peter. But if it was, what exactly can and will you do? I mean, what specific form would an intervention take?

PM:

Yeah. So Michelle Rollins talked about the review of the anti-siphoning laws and has made the statements that she's made and she will continue to do that work. It's not for me to make an announcement of what she would or wouldn't do. With all due respect, I would if I could. And it's not that's not my place. But I do so and so I wasn't trying to avoid the answer.

I was just - my point is, I do think that this is something the government should be involved in. And I think there's other parts of sport on television, like women's sport, the government should be more involved in making sure there's more of it and more people can say it.

VT:

Well, this needs to be a watch this space then. Senator Van, really great having you on board. Thanks so much.

DV:

Always my pleasure. Thanks, Virginia.

VT:

Thank you. Senator David Van, Liberal, Senator for Victoria and Peta Murphy, good to have you on board, too. We'll see you soon.

PM:

Thank you very much. Thanks, David. Thanks.

VT:

Peta Murphy, federal Labor MP for Dunkley.